EV siren usage. -split off from "high/low lightbar"

[q2bman]

Robert it seems that when you give examples of when you do not need the siren, you also would not even need lights. If you kill the siren and can make a legal left turn why not just run non emergency all the time. Seems that if you are in emergency mode you should be sounding the siren. Someone pulling out in front of you would have looked left the right and not observed your emergency lighting. A siren could serve as a last min. warning to the driver to stop. This could save a life, maybe even yours!

[Robert Gift]

Robert ...If you kill the siren and can make a legal left turn why not just run non emergency all the time.

Good point Q, -just like the top of your head.
(OK, MY head.)
When exiting interstates I may turn off the lights.
I always signal, move from lane one to lane two and lane three to off ramp.

When I get behind someone in the right lane, they begin to slow and even pull over.
That exposes them to greater risk trying to pull back on the Interstate.
Or they may actually take the off-ramp.

So I just quietly, unobtrusively exit.

In the previous example I was turning right.
Since I did not stop, the lights were operating.
Otherwise an illegal right turn on red without stopping.
Unfortunately some left turns [from my right] saw the lights and still stopped even though I had my right turn signal operating.

On Interstates, some truckers slow and pull off onto the shoulder.
May take them a mile to get back up to speed.

I asked Colorado State Patrol if I can shut down on Interstates
where the left lane is clear far ahead.
They said no.
So I use just the white forward strobes and steady red lights in the light bar to be legal but affect others as little as possible.

Seems that if you are in emergency mode you should be sounding the siren.

The siren blares everywhere disturbing people whom do NOT need to hear it.
Lights are not so obtrusive.

Someone pulling out in front of you would have looked left theN right and not observed your emergency lighting. A siren could serve as a last min. warning to the driver to stop. This could save a life, maybe even yours!

I am proceeding in my lane just like any other vehicle - they should discern that they cannot pull out in front of any vehicles in another lane.
In traffic I slow anticipating such problems. Also I always try to have an escape route if someone does pull in front of me.

[Jim_Ferer]

Robert, you go overboard with this quiet thing. Your only concern ought to be clearing the road ahead and making certain people know you are there. Other considerations, like not bothering people, are of no importance by comparison.

[Robert Gift]

Robert, you go overboard with this quiet thing. Your only concern ought to be clearing the rode ahead and making certain people know you are there. Other considerations, like not bothering people, are of no importance by comparison.

You are right, Jim.
Silence is not as important as avoiding an accident.

When traffic has cleared, I instantly silence the siren.
Also no siren when there is no traffic in my lane.

With the excellent EV lights, traffic often clears so far ahead that the siren is not needed. They already know an EV is approaching.

I try not to startle anyone with it by sounding it before I get too close. Unfortunately sometimes others who have already pulled over are annoyed, anyway.

But I also keep in mind that just because it is sounding, the driver may be deaf or listening to music and not hear it.
So, I always drive assuming they do not hear it.

[StonedChipmunk]

This is the second time I have to make this comment...
If I were that driver to look left then right, I'd pull slowly into the left lane and check to make sure nobody was coming.
If a speeding patrol car comes my way (or an ambulance... or even a firetruck, for that matter) I probably wouldn't have much time to speed up and you wouldn't have enough time to slow down before a crash... and don't make up anything about me backing up... considering that the time-hungry driver behind me has taken up the space, chances are I couldn't back up anyways.
After being hospitalized for being in a major accident, I'd sue you for all you own. First, chances are you'd be off the team - whether police or paramedic, I forgot - so you'd be in enough of a rut. Now, you have to deal with a flaming mad driver who had a near-death experience all because you didn't have your siren on.
Suprisingly, not all drivers listen to metal music at full blast while cutting their nails, drinking coffee and writing a novel. People can hear EV sirens. No question about it.
Now, let's go back to that left lane situation. Suppose you had your siren on. At the instant I began to consider switching lanes, I'd become more observant when I heard an EV siren and scan the perimeter for an emergency vehicle. I probably wouldn't even merge unless I was blocking the way.
I don't know what siren you have and what vehicle you drive, but they don't make sirens because nobody can hear them. They make them because they work. All this crap about not being able to hear sirens is bull. If people couldn't hear sirens, why are fire departments spending tons of money to purchase eQ2Bs, which are MUCH quieter than Qs?
You always have to be prepared. If you are driving through a residential street, I totally understand wanting to silence the siren, and I'm not objecting to that. It's when you're in a large street that having the siren off bothers me.

[Jim_Ferer]

An emergency vehicle driver has one mission, to get to his assignment without causing an accident so that he can render the assistance he was sent for. Not disturbing the neighbors is priority zero.

Liability is not a magic formula and never was. You avoid liability by doing right and avoiding accidents. Not making use of all the means available is dangerous on all levels, including liability.

[StonedChipmunk]

Amen to that.
I do, though, have to admit that occasionally there are times where using a siren isn't useful at all and turning it off would probably be helpful.
Let's take a few examples, though, to clear this up:

Example 1:
You're driving an ambulance down a residential street at night to get to an accident 4 blocks away.
A.) If you keep your lights and siren on, some neighbors might get pissed off and demand that laws be put into effect about siren usage.
B.) If you keep your lights on and a finger near the Manual button, you won't wake up the neighbors but you'll have the siren close by just in case something happens. Tap the siren a few times when crossing intersections.
C.) If you keep your lights on but your siren off, you run the risk of plowing into a car driving through an alley or somewhere with limited vision.
Best choice: B

Example 2:
You're driving on a freeway in moderate traffic (think Southern California non-rush-hour traffic) and you see a speeder going 20MPH over the limit. You begin to pursue him and he does not stop immediately.
A.) If you keep your lights and siren on, cars around you will be notified to get out of the way before something happens (in this case, the speeder collides with them).
B.) If you keep your lights on and a finger near the siren, you'll have quick access to the siren if it's time.
C.) If you keep your lights on but no siren, there is an excessively dangerous risk of witnessing a major collision.
Best choice: B, then A if the chase really begins

Example 3:
You're driving in the middle of nowhere in a firetruck to get to a house fire. Only 2 cars are visible, and it's a clear day.
A.) If you have nothing on, the vehicles around you will think you are just driving, and they may impede your travel.
B.) If you have your lights on but no siren, the vehicles will probably see your firetruck as it is a clear day, but they may not see it due to the sun and glare.
C.) If you keep your lights on with an occasional blast of the siren or air horn, the vehicles will keep out of your way or pull over, giving you the road and nothing to fear.
Best choice: C

Example 4:
You're a security guard at a large high school/college. You spot someone drive in without a permit or any means of identification and speed off. You hop in your car, which is armed with a somewhat dim lightbar and an aging siren, and drive off.
A.) If you keep your lights and siren on, students and teachers will be annoyed of the noise and you may be confronted by your boss.
B.) If you keep your lights on but only occasionally tap the siren, you might catch the speeder but there is a lesser chance of boss confrontation.
C.) If you keep your lights on only, the speeder won't even notice you and will probably do something stupid (crash into a building, hit someone, etc.)
Best choice: A, or B if you are confident that you can catch the speeder

For proof that I'm not making crap up, I work in the emergency response business in a metaverse called Second Life as a police chief and a certified ambulance/firetruck driver. (It's not really a job, and you don't get paid, but the world itself is extremely reaistic.) To test my theories, I updated the patrol car, ambulance, and firetruck my emergency response teams use to include common sirens in real life, plus built and programmed many different types of lights, lightbars, etc. to simulate the above situations.
In Example 1, I found that more often than not most people don't mind the noise, since a bit of noise pollution is worth much less than a human (or avatar, in this case) life.
Example 2 ended up with a lot of accidents (as vehicle controls are hard) but most people pulled over once they heard the siren. The lights didn't do much, most people just moved out of my lane.
Example 3 was a bit harder since it was in the middle of nowhere and I had to get some friends to help. The lights were of no help because the glare and sunlight almost dimmed them out (except for strobe lightbars, those were a bit more effective) but the siren worked much more efficiently than in most applications I know because there were no obstructions.
For Example 4 I used a local roleplaying city that I knew of (after I got permission from the owner) and tested the theory. A lot of store managers got worried and their customers were scared when I came speeding by with my siren blasting, and a lot of people complained that it even scared some customers away. I'd go with the lights only and an occasional tap of the siren for this one.
And if you're thinking that this is a load of crap and how Second Life could model real life situations, consider this: many building manufacturers rebuild their creations in Second Life to test structure stability and such. Also, many safety companies are testing their products (particularly fire warning and escape devices) to see how they affect the evacuation time of inhabitants. Recently, I heard something about the Dept. of Homeland Security even logging on to do some classified tests in a private classified island. So it's realism factor is amazing... that's why nearly 2 million people have accounts there.

When exiting interstates I may turn off the lights.
I always signal, move from lane one to lane two and lane three to off ramp.
When I get behind someone in the right lane, they begin to slow and even pull over.

I can't see the point here. Most of the time someone is pulled over, there isn't a siren continually blasting in 3 other lanes for the last 10 minutes plus a speeding cop car.

I asked Colorado State Patrol if I can shut down on Interstates where the left lane is clear far ahead. They said no.

I don't blame them. See my last post.

I am proceeding in my lane just like any other vehicle - they should discern that they cannot pull out in front of any vehicles in another lane.
In traffic I slow anticipating such problems. Also I always try to have an escape route if someone does pull in front of me.

Robert... the main key to getting to an emergency is total driving time. Nobody wants to wait for an ambulance when they're having a heart attack! How would you like it if you were having a major heart attack and you later knew the driver was going less than 65 MPH on the freeway?

If an accident occurs while I'm running silent, opposing counsel would want to blame me, or assign a higher percentage if shared blame.

Again, I can't blame them.

Our coordinated lights are extraodinarily effective at clearing traffic way ahead.
If I am in MY lane, which traffic has vacated, I do not sound the siren because I am like any other vehicle in it's lane.

Yes, people can be listening to metal music while talking on the phone, but not everyone keeps a continuous scan of the surrounding 200 ft while driving either. And during the day, lights can even be less effective. (I'm unsure of what lights you use.)
And you are NOT LIKE ANY OTHER VEHICLE. You're driving an EMERGENCY VEHICLE to an EMERGENCY. If you were not, then you could just use a truck or a van. In that case, you should be following all traffic laws. But the purpose of emergency vehicle usage is to allow the partial breaking of traffic laws. If you wern't breaking traffic laws, you could just simply use a regular civilian vehicle.

Last week when I came to a major intersection, cross-traffic had left green arrows.
Without even slowing cross-traffic, I silently made a right turn on red. The siren would likely have stopped all traffic movement and caused many to miss their turn.
Being silent also likely prevented vehicles on my street pulling right into the right turn lane which would have blocked my progress.
So there are situations where silence is beneficial.

You're forgetting one thing. Not everyone is a law-abiding citizen, and people going from right to left in your perspective could make u-turns and collide with you. On the other hand, if you had your siren on, people would know something's up and look for lights and plan accordingly.

Several weeks ago I called Aurora Fire dispatch about Engine 11 parked at an accident scene with all lights and Opticom on.
It exacerbated already congested rush-hour traffic by keeping a major intersection's traffic signal red in three directions. (Signals are supposed to "time out" and ignore a continuous Opticom "call", but this signal apparently did not drop the call.)

I congratulate you on the Opticom aspect, and agree that less lights could be used in this situation, but you can't just turn off all lights or people would think that you're just parked there to check up on your family or go to the store. Emergency lights signal an emergency situation.

Please reconsider your thoughts and post some ideas - I want to see them.

[Jim_Ferer]

This requires a lot of discussion, because there's a lot here.

Your Example 1: I agree. I don't advocate running siren every second.

Your Example 2: I'd stick with A.

Your Example 3: There's another choice, especially if you've got a rotary siren, just "blipping" or growling the siren. You could do the same with the air horn.

Your Example 4: Most security guards can't be trusted with a pursuit. Get the plate and call the cops.

Most of the examples of turning off lights below are dangerous and against the policy of most departments. If I was a supervisor they just wouldn't be allowed.


robert gift wrote:
If an accident occurs while I'm running silent, opposing counsel would want to blame me, or assign a higher percentage if shared blame.

Stoned Chipmunk: Again, I can't blame them.

It's plaintiff counsel's job to come up with a theory of liability against the defendant. Don't hand him one on a silver platter. I'm distressed how many people have no idea how the civil legal system works. I do this in my RL job every day in maybe the most litigious place on Earth, New York City.

robert gift wrote:
Our coordinated lights are extraordinarily effective at clearing traffic way ahead. If I am in MY lane, which traffic has vacated, I do not sound the siren because I am like any other vehicle in it's lane.

Stoned Chipmunk: "Yes, people can be listening to metal music while talking on the phone, but not everyone keeps a continuous scan of the surrounding 200 ft while driving either. And during the day, lights can even be less effective. (I'm unsure of what lights you use.)
And you are NOT LIKE ANY OTHER VEHICLE. You're driving an EMERGENCY VEHICLE to an EMERGENCY. If you were not, then you could just use a truck or a van. In that case, you should be following all traffic laws. But the purpose of emergency vehicle usage is to allow the partial breaking of traffic laws. If you wern't breaking traffic laws, you could just simply use a regular civilian vehicle."

Amen, Brother Chipmunk.

About stopped at a scene: Often scenes get seriously overlit and dazzling, but turning off all lights is not the answer. The answers, if there are any, are different light modes for stopped at scene vehicles, turning off some lights (if there's a dozen units at a scene, do all 12 have to have all lights on?), things like that. Going dark is dangerous and irresponsible. This is an area where some experimentation is in order. One idea I'd be curious to try would be lights (always LED) larger in area but not as intense.

[StonedChipmunk]

About stopped at a scene: Often scenes get seriously overlit and dazzling, but turning off all lights is not the answer. The answers, if there are any, are different light modes for stopped at scene vehicles, turning off some lights (if there's a dozen units at a scene, do all 12 have to have all lights on?), things like that. Going dark is dangerous and irresponsible. This is an area where some experimentation is in order. One idea I'd be curious to try would be lights (always LED) larger in area but not as intense.

That's what I'm saying. I was going to the Georgia Aquarium last weekend (although they say it's the largest in the world, most of it is a huge cafeteria, a theater for a crappy 4D animation conveying an EPA message, and a huge central place containing benches and an excessively large gift shop) and on the way there we saw some generic cop cars hold up traffic for no reason whatsoever. I still think that they were just a bunch of troublemakers. When they pulled over to let people pass and get out and stretch in the median, we saw them - they wern't even in uniform! Suspiscious. Anyways, on the way back at around 9 PM we saw the same cars - all four - parked on both sides of the road (2 per side) with about 50ft space between the ones in the front and the ones in the back. All of them had their lightbars and strobe taillight and headlight flashers on full blast... they were just sitting there. Same spot, too. I identified the lightbars as these Whelen lightbars and they were all blue. After we passed, we heard a message on the radio that there had been two accidents on the highway we were on at the exit they were at. I'm really sure they were just making trouble.
The point is, tons of lights at night = bad. But low lights during day = bad, too. Lightbars don't really work well at a distance during the day, especially rotating lightbars. Strobes are better, and LEDs are the best due to the color change (other lightbars are always blue, LEDs are clear off but bright blue on).

[Robert Gift]

Wow, this is getting complicated.

I like the LEDs with clear lens.
I have an "oval" stop/turn/tail LED which is clear lens with black background inside. The contrast of black, then bright red, works very well as an emergency light.

I should put my dash-mounted camcorder videos on ***(I've been asked not to use this word before so there is now an automatic replacement censor)*** for you to critique. Then you can see all the occasions where siren is not needed.

A firefighter watching the video of my driving west in the eastbound lanes
said I should have had the siren sounding. (3 lanes, I am in #1 [closest to center])

But there were no side streets and a 900 foot long raised concrete median. Only vehicles coming at me.
They could not help but see the EV, especially with headlight wigwags.

Now, if anyone did not react properly, I would sound the siren, and slow and stop if necessary. If they hit me, then it's their fault because I am dead stopped.

Depending on the traffic light cycle, I may sound the siren as I approach the intersection because SB cross-traffic may be turning left heading east right towards me. Or NB traffic turning right heading east.
At the intersection I am slow enough that if someone is deaf, unable to hear the siren, or panics, I can stop or maneuver.

When exiting a freeway, moving right from lane 1 to 2 to 3 and then into the off ramp, I can turn the lights off because I am under the speed limit,
using R turn signal to do legal lane changes into the off ramp.

If I keep lights and siren operating, then everyone starts moving right and slowing, blocking my progress and complicating everything.
Some have even pulled over into the off ramp and must now exit.

Better to turn off wigwags and forward lights and strobes with only the lightbar to warn those beside and behind that I am slowing and exiting.