Model 3 Activation Problems

[TNSirens]

My neighboring town has been having some problems with their Model 3 activating. They put an FC on it in 2011. According to one of the council members, during a tornado warning, the siren didn't activate until 4-5 minutes (I forgot the exact time) after tones were sent out. I'm unaware if it happened again with the next tornado event. When it was tested, it didn't activate at all. Our county tests for 30 seconds. Would anyone have any idea what's up with It? Sounds like a radio issue to me.

[nvanw27]

Seems like the FC is freezing up when it gets tones or isn't receiving the tones at all. Definitely sounds like an issue with the radio, or something in the controls, like a relay, could be acting up as well.

[Ohio_Man]

Try using a thermal camera to see how hot the controller and relays run.

If the relays look fine (no heat marks, pitting, or coil damage) it's definitely the radio.

If they want to test the radio without sounding the siren, disconnect the siren from the relay and have someone see if the relay clicks. Just remember to reconnect.

If it's the Original relay I'd just up and replace it.

[OHIO Desperado]

OK, wait a minute.. according to your post the siren didn't activate until 4 minutes AFTER the tones were dropped to activate the siren. That's not even possible. If the controller (assuming its an Federal but even if it's a VA2000 Whelen) is going to start the 3 minute timer as soon as the tones drop and it activates. So even if the relays hung and didn't close, in 3 minutes the timer would have expired and released the signal to close the relays. And calling it a "radio" problem couldn't be further from right. The radio simply receives the signal coming from the transmitting radio. It then demodulates the signal via the FM discriminator, and runs it over to an amplifier that then sends the received audio out to the decoder part of the controller. Now if it had NOT activated at all, then yes maybe it's a radio issue. But this is sounding alot more like the dispatch center didn't send the signal out until 4 minutes AFTER the warning is issued. So something don't add up here. Did the siren activate after the 4 minute delay? That is the key to all this. If it DID, what you are saying don't make sense. If it didn't then it could be any number of things and obviously some part of the siren is broken. A model 3 is a pretty basic siren in its construction. A motor and a chopper/blower for the noise making part. If you apply power, it spins and goes whoo whoo. The FC controller would be connected to a heavy contactor that would control the power. So you could have a bad contactor, a bad siren or just a blown fuse in one of the power legs feeding the siren. SO I guess the next question is are YOU working on it and need help getting it going again? Or are you just curious about what could be the problem?

[TNSirens]

OK, wait a minute.. according to your post the siren didn't activate until 4 minutes AFTER the tones were dropped to activate the siren. That's not even possible. If the controller (assuming its an Federal but even if it's a VA2000 Whelen) is going to start the 3 minute timer as soon as the tones drop and it activates. So even if the relays hung and didn't close, in 3 minutes the timer would have expired and released the signal to close the relays. And calling it a "radio" problem couldn't be further from right. The radio simply receives the signal coming from the transmitting radio. It then demodulates the signal via the FM discriminator, and runs it over to an amplifier that then sends the received audio out to the decoder part of the controller. Now if it had NOT activated at all, then yes maybe it's a radio issue. But this is sounding alot more like the dispatch center didn't send the signal out until 4 minutes AFTER the warning is issued. So something don't add up here. Did the siren activate after the 4 minute delay? That is the key to all this. If it DID, what you are saying don't make sense. If it didn't then it could be any number of things and obviously some part of the siren is broken. A model 3 is a pretty basic siren in its construction. A motor and a chopper/blower for the noise making part. If you apply power, it spins and goes whoo whoo. The FC controller would be connected to a heavy contactor that would control the power. So you could have a bad contactor, a bad siren or just a blown fuse in one of the power legs feeding the siren. SO I guess the next question is are YOU working on it and need help getting it going again? Or are you just curious about what could be the problem?

I know one of the city council members and was gonna see if I could give them an exact answer. Yes, it activated according to the city council. I can see if they have more details about it. Also, yes, I have witnessed a siren activate 6 minutes late after the rest of the county went off, which it is now fixed. There's video proof I can show you if you want to see.

[nvanw27]

I said it could be a radio problem, because sometimes these radios have been known to have strange issues. Ian Murr's FC radio froze up and didn't do anything when he was testing it a few months ago, after about 45-60 seconds, it freed itself up and activated the siren. There's a Whelen WS-2016 on an UltraVoice controller in Monroe County, Michigan that doesn't activate until 18 minutes after the tones are sent out, but that seems more like an issue within the UltraVoice itself. Radio issues like this have been known to happen, and it could be what happened here.

[OHIO Desperado]

You keep saying radio problem.. which again is TOTALLT incorrect. The radio JUST receives the signal off the air and sends it to the controller. There is NO possibility of delay in the RADIO. It's not an active part of the activation, it's just a pass through. There is NO WAY of the RADIO it self causing this problem. The controller possibly, but highly unlikely. RADIO issues are as follows, No activation. No reply or an incomplete reply from the siren back to the activation system for a status report. That's it.... Now a single radio can cause an entire system to fail. If it's stuck in transmit holding the repeater up and the activation radio can't override the signal and activate any of the sirens.... but again that's not what you are talking about here.

You mentioned that the siren waited 4 minutes to activate. And that YOUR county did a test and it did activate... Is the siren you speak of in a different jurisdiction? Maybe some other dispatch center that actually controls it? That could be your delay if that's the case.. The center set off the other sirens and then needed to call a different dispatch center to get THEM to activate the siren.

For a better understanding of a radio controlled siren activation, here is the chain.
Encoder -> transmit radio -> air waves -> receive radio at siren -> Controller board -> siren
The Encoder creates the tones or data needed to talk to the controller and tell the siren controller to activate the siren.
The Transmit radio takes the controlling data and puts it on the air (what you hear via a scanner)
Air Waves, self explanatory (may include a repeater)
Receive radio takes the RF signal created by the transmitter and demodulates the data
Siren controller takes the data (audio like you hear on a scanner) and interprets it as commands, then executes the commands based on it's programming. Sending the commands to the siren to either turn on amplifiers and tones in the case of an electronic siren or to close a relay or contactor in the case of a mechanical sire like a Model 2

In short the RADIO can't delay the sounding of the siren. It has to hear the signal fro the activation equipment and pass it to the controller. It can't hold the progression up in any way, or delay the signal getting to the siren controller.

[Federal Signal fan]

EDIT: Do not perform any of the following checks or inspections unless you are a qualified electrician. While I do not think the checks are hard for someone unqualified, it's more for safety if you are not familiar with electricity, the equipment, or the tools. I would feel horrible if someone got hurt or worse following instructions.

**NOTE: I am not familiar with siren controllers, so I am going to assume there's a motor starter or contactor at some point for the siren motor and some sort of output or relay for pickup by the radio activation.**

The radio can be ruled out if you can verify you get run/activate signal but don't get the output to run the motor. If you are able to get someone or you yourself check the controller while the signal is sent, then you should be able to see if the relays are energizing either by hearing it or a flag on the relay. If not, you can take a multi-meter and check for the voltage output to the motor starter or drive. If you see that the radio signal is being picked up but the output isn't getting sent - then work upstream from that output. If you get the output and it's seeing the radio signal, then you need to check other things downstream. If you get nothing, back to the radio signal. Could have interference or bad antenna, etc.

Basic checks if Radio signal present at controller;
De-Energized Checks (power locked out, and verified no voltage phase-to-phase and phase-to-ground):

- Does main motor starter/contactor move freely? No binding up on the frame or the shell? Check resistance through the starter from L1 to T1 and L2 to T2 and L3 to T3 etc. Are there latching relays or other circuit elements that would cause a motor starter to drop out?

- Check relay operation (if able to). Some relays have test buttons to move the contacts into the energized state. Check resistance and do a visual to see if contacts are dirty or show signs of arc/heat damage.

- Check coil resistance and check visual on coil. Both on control relays and motor starter.


Energized/Test Checks (wear appropriate PPE):

- Incoming voltage? Check phase-to-phase and phase-to-ground to make sure everything is present.

- Local test run, check amps with amp-clamp. Make sure the phases are pulling evenly.

- LOCK OUT POWER, unhook motor - THEN, have radio signal sent to siren and check for voltage at motor starter coil. Check that overload aux contact is not open. (you would get 80VAC on a 120VAC coil if you had an open neutral/overload aux contact)

If you have a circuit diagram or reference info, I'd be interested in taking a look and see if there's anything else to check.

Cheers!

[nvanw27]

I refute my earlier claim of the radio freezing and not passing the information to the controller. In this video, ( [url]https://youtu.be/EhLfZfIvbh8[url] ), the uploader states that his radio froze up, causing the data to not be passed to the siren controller. That is what makes the most sense here.

Edit: I'm a moron. Refute was not the right word, I should've said "stand by my claim" or "defend".

[OHIO Desperado]

I refute my earlier claim of the radio freezing and not passing the information to the controller. In this video, ( [url]https://youtu.be/EhLfZfIvbh8[url] ), the uploader states that his radio froze up, causing the data to not be passed to the siren controller. That is what makes the most sense here.

Edit: I'm a moron. Refute was not the right word, I should've said "stand by my claim" or "defend".

Well you can stand by what ever you want. And I am not sure what knowledge level you are but I have been working on sirens professionally for over 10 years. And my primary form of work is two way radios, like to ones used on sirens for command and control.
I can assure you that within the radio, there is no method, circuit or device able to record, retain and play at a later time ANY type of intelligence or data in the radio. It simply will receive the signal from the transmitter, demodulate it and pass it along to the controller. So regardless of what someone SAID happened, I can assure you that the RADIO played no part in it.

Now, could a controller be locking up and the output of the controller cause a delay.. possibly. It would have some level of memory in it and it could have decoded a command, and the microprocessor stopped for some time and then released the command to the siren controller to activate, that would technically possible but highly improbable.

The ONLY way that a radio could POSSIBLY delay would be from the TRANSMITTER side, and THAT radio hearing a signal on the frequency in question, indicate to the encoder that the frequency was busy and delay the command being sent to the siren to begin with.... but again this is NOT a problem with the receiving radio at the siren.